I understand emotions are high for many folks here including myself, but let's try to keep things calm. If it gets a bit too out of hand maybe take a break for a minute so we can think more clearly. We still have some time to figure out what, if anything there is that we can do about this sad news. I want to make sure we are thinking logically and not emotionally. Emotional thinking in my case has not usually ended with wise actions.

Moving on, it is my personal opinion that number 1 priority would be to document what is already happening at the factory while it is still in operation regardless of any further action. It will help facilitate further actions in attempting small scale manufacturing if someone wishes to take that on. If nothing else it will be preserved for history. An in depth video tour of the factory and interviews of employees need to be made. As I currently work in the live production industry as camera operator and video engineer, I have the skills to accomplish this. However, it almost always comes down to money for which I am lacking enough to do this task since I can't take a week off and drive there (cars don't drive on water well). I would also be willing to coach someone if necessary to at least get some half-decent content to work with.

I understand emotions are high for many folks here including myself, but let's try to keep things calm. If it gets a bit too out of hand maybe take a break for a minute so we can think more clearly. We still have some time to figure out what, if anything there is that we can do about this sad news. I want to make sure we are thinking logically and not emotionally. Emotional thinking in my case has not usually ended with wise actions.

Moving on, it is my personal opinion that number 1 priority would be to document what is already happening at the factory while it is still in operation regardless of any further action. It will help facilitate further actions in attempting small scale manufacturing if someone wishes to take that on. If nothing else it will be preserved for history. An in depth video tour of the factory and interviews of employees need to be made. As I currently work in the live production industry as camera operator and video engineer, I have the skills to accomplish this. However, it almost always comes down to money for which I am lacking enough to do this task since I can't take a week off and drive there (cars don't drive on water well). I would also be willing to coach someone if necessary to at least get some half-decent content to work with.

Now that would be interesting and especially realistic idea. First we should figure out how Philips think about such idea. After that, it just organizing.

Moving on, it is my personal opinion that number 1 priority would be to document what is already happening at the factory while it is still in operation regardless of any further action. It will help facilitate further actions in attempting small scale manufacturing if someone wishes to take that on.

Andy, I really don't think that small scale manufacture of SOX is possible. The best anyone could do is something along the lines of what the original development engineers did when LPS lamps were first invented in making prototypes. Is that a viable proposition (even if it's possible)..? How much would it cost and is the end result, which is by no means clear, worth it..?

Your idea on documenting the process is most definitely worth pursuing, I see no reason why this could not be done on a factory visit, if this becomes possible.

In theory anything is possible and talk is always cheap. Just out of curiosity, how much (in Dollars or Euros) of your own personal savings would you be willing to sacrifice for such a venture?

I have spent lately 5 digits (in either $ or Euro) on another largely identical project (though the product is not a lamp). Taking on two such projects at the same time is out of my capabilities

Ash, the question is not so much is it possible (which I doubt) but is it worth it..? Philips need to sell over a million lamps a year to make the process economically viable. What is the point of maintaining all this equipment, even if you have the people, which are key, if you aren't going to sell the end product..?

Why, exactly, do you want to do this..? Is it just to make a few lamps for the likes of us, or is it to make a viable business out of it..? If the former, James and others have explained in great detail why it cannot succeed. If the latter, where are your customers and why do you think Philips are closing it down..?

Is planning to order a custom lamp batch from Philips economically viable ?

Is experience in setting up the complicated machinery (no matter what is the end product) economically viable, when it is rised in a job interview for a high pay engineering job ?

SOX lamps have some applications where they might work well : Area floodlighting in high fog areas (so UK, the place where the lamp is made right now), in areas where effects on wildlife are of a concern, and others. While it may not (and according to EU standards, cannot) be used anymore for its original application at road lighting, it still is a good specialised application lamp with unique qualities and excellent environmental friendliness

I understand emotions are high for many folks here including myself, but let's try to keep things calm. If it gets a bit too out of hand maybe take a break for a minute so we can think more clearly. We still have some time to figure out what, if anything there is that we can do about this sad news. I want to make sure we are thinking logically and not emotionally. Emotional thinking in my case has not usually ended with wise actions.

Moving on, it is my personal opinion that number 1 priority would be to document what is already happening at the factory while it is still in operation regardless of any further action. It will help facilitate further actions in attempting small scale manufacturing if someone wishes to take that on. If nothing else it will be preserved for history. An in depth video tour of the factory and interviews of employees need to be made. As I currently work in the live production industry as camera operator and video engineer, I have the skills to accomplish this. However, it almost always comes down to money for which I am lacking enough to do this task since I can't take a week off and drive there (cars don't drive on water well). I would also be willing to coach someone if necessary to at least get some half-decent content to work with.

That would be important part of evaluating what it takes to take on the project

In my project i hadn't have this opportunity (when i decided to take it, it was allready stopped) so i have more things to figure out or ask, but so far this haven't been a show stopper

Now that would be interesting and especially realistic idea. First we should figure out how Philips think about such idea. After that, it just organizing.

In my case, the company willingly tell and explain everything i ask. I hope it will be the same with Philips

Andy, I really don't think that small scale manufacture of SOX is possible. The best anyone could do is something along the lines of what the original development engineers did when LPS lamps were first invented in making prototypes. Is that a viable proposition (even if it's possible)..? How much would it cost and is the end result, which is by no means clear, worth it..?

Your idea on documenting the process is most definitely worth pursuing, I see no reason why this could not be done on a factory visit, if this becomes possible.

Some lamp making plants have older, slower tool set which is used for experimenting and for training newcomers

In my case, the company had both fast automated and slow manual machinery for some steps. For the steps involving high effort for each product unit (e.g. where the automatic one can save significant time even for a small volume production), i took both the manual and automatic machines. For the steps where the manual step is simple and quick, and the automatic machine just takes much more space, i took the manual one only (or none at all, if the step can as quickly be done by hand tools, e.g. tightening screws with a manual cordless screwdriver)

SOX lamps have some applications where they might work well : Area floodlighting in high fog areas (so UK, the place where the lamp is made right now), in areas where effects on wildlife are of a concern, and others. While it may not (and according to EU standards, cannot) be used anymore for its original application at road lighting, it still is a good specialised application lamp with unique qualities and excellent environmental friendliness

So tell me again, why are Philips, a multinational company, closing down the only factory left in the world making them..? Do you think they haven't considered any possible way of keeping it going..?

Is planning to order a custom lamp batch from Philips economically viable ?

As such, probably not. But if we can organise a factory visit at a time close to the end of production, assuming it isn't too complicated a thing to do, I can't see a reason why they would refuse.

I have spent lately 5 digits (in either $ or Euro) on another largely identical project (though the product is not a lamp). Taking on two such projects at the same time is out of my capabilities

That was not the question. Given that acquiring the SOX manufacturing from Philips will NOT be a financially profitable endeavor (otherwise Philips would never have considered closing its Hamilton operations in the first place), no sane banker will loan you any money for this. So, again, how much (in Dollars or Euros) of your own personal savings would you be willing to sacrifice for such a venture? In other words how much do you value, in financial terms, such venture knowing (or actually ignoring as you do) its unprofitable long term outcome?

Besides, there's nothing even remotely "identical" between the two projects.

So tell me again, why are Philips, a multinational company, closing down the only factory left in the world making them..? Do you think they haven't considered any possible way of keeping it going..?

Simple : We are not in the same position

As a company, the point at which Philips decide to close the manufacturing is the point where the profit reaches zero (add or take the expenses of surplus raw materials in stock, whether to use them up or discard them). As lighting enthusiasts, i can see that it may be of interest to us to keep the thing going even if it is at a loss, so long as it is only a small loss. (which might well be the case, if the machinery comes out to be cheap, the raw material use is only proportional to the production volume and to a set minimum, and other things get right)

As a company, Philips have newer and more profitable products to promote e.g LEDs. They dont have the interest in keeping this technology up like we do

That was not the question. Given that acquiring the SOX manufacturing from Philips will NOT be a financially profitable endeavor (otherwise Philips would never have considered closing its Hamilton operations in the first place), no sane banker will loan you any money for this. So, again, how much (in Dollars or Euros) of your own personal savings would you be willing to sacrifice for such a venture? In other words how much do you value, in financial terms, such venture knowing (or actually ignoring as you do) its unprofitable long term outcome?

Besides, there's nothing even remotely "identical" between the two projects.

Every bank have an "any purpose" loan up to a certain sum, and higher loans if they know and approve what it is going for. I used the first option

Lets say that i would not have spent anything on my project so i would have the money available, i would perhaps give the SOX project up to 10K Euros, under the conditions :

 - I will own the respective part of the tooling or share in the joint venture

 - If the project does not even start (e.g. project stops and is cancelled before there is even an attempt to set it up) then the full sum of money will return to me

Since you dont know about my project and i dont know about what machinery exactly is there, the projects cannot be compared in size. Otherwise they are both projects of buying out machinery where it is unlikely to recover the investment by selling the product, but are valuable for other reasons

I can see that it may be of interest to us to keep the thing going even if it is at a loss, so long as it is only a small loss

Define "small loss"? And how would you exactly ensure that this is minimized? (hint, see James' post)

I wonder how many here would be willing to regularly throw money down an open drain just "to keep the thing going". The hobby of most LG members really interested in SOX lamps (about everybody who replied to this thread so far) is to collect lamps, not to make them, and the curiosity factor will wear out pretty quickly after the first (crappy) lamps are made at great costs. I'm afraid there won't be many stakeholders in your proposed venture (I see only one so far...).

I would perhaps give the SOX project up to 10K Euros

That's a very meager contribution for a venture that's most likely to have less than five stakeholders (see point above). Also, there are way too many "maybe" and "ifs". Again, in theory anything is possible, especially when you know so little about SOX production and you make plans out of general principles that clearly don't apply to conventional lamp manufacturing (see James' post again).

[...]i dont know about what machinery exactly is there

Well, that sums up the quality of your proposal quite accurately and how well-informed your plan is. I guess there's nothing left to say then and I wish you all a happy discussion

I think it would be great to take a break about manufacturing on this thread for a little while and re-visit it later. We are all on the same team here folks.

I understand your distress Andy, but the subject of manufacturing is unavoidable in a thread opened about the discontinuation of a particular product. Besides, we are keeping things pretty cordial so far and nobody is forcing you to read all posts dealing with lamp production (I have skipped many lengthy posts in this thread).

Ash - By the way, last Monday Ledvance announced that they will close their Berlin-Spandau factory. You certainly want to make plans on that too as many LG members here would certainly be thrilled to pay just for the sake of keeping the production of medium-wattage daylight HQI lamps going (it's so much more rewarding that saving for the kids' college fund ).

On a more serious note, if you really believe in your project, then why don't you just set up a crowdfunding open to all LG members? This would be the best way for you to see the actual interest vs your perceived one for this plan. One word of advice though: don't keep your hopes too high...

Cool down hotheads, let's not let this get too personal.


I propose following:

1) let's first try to organize that visit to the factory. Someone (preferably a UK member) should enquire about it and then we should see how many of us will participate and set the date etc details. Not sure if I can participate myself since I live here far away where it's cold even in the summer and since I don't bath in the money but I would sure like to if I happen get enought money for that.

2) well made document would be awesome. At least I would be willing to financially support that. Perhaps we could do some sort of group funding for this? This have to be also discussed with philips.

3) buying the equiptments is pretty far off idea, we can talk about it as long as we want but I see there is no enought people who want to have such expensive experience(me neither). Personally, I could only shed something like 1 000EUR max. I allready have mortgage to pay so there is no way Im interested to take a loan for this. It would also need hundred of work hours of dedication without likely to have monetary compensation and I doubt there is that either.


There is probably no that much hurry since the closing is still few years from now.

There is probably no that much hurry since the closing is still few years from now.

Between two and three years. I as a UK member living a couple of hours or so from Hamilton would be willing to co-ordinate things from a group point of view. I'm retired so have plenty of time      But let's see what reply James gets from Philips on the topic first.

Regarding small scale manufacture, I can in a way see why Ash is so keen on the idea, I would be too, if I thought there was a snowball's chance in (a very hot place) of making it work, but I just can't see it. I will take no further part in any discussion on that particular subject.

Ria

Many members here are regularly throwing money to get relics off Ebay or ship them overseas. Half of that smashes on the way. Nobody yet said that this is not reasonable waste of money, though i find it far less interesting than trying to make something of my own. (disclosure : i don't hunt for any lamps off Ebay, except ordinary LEDs for my electronics projects)

Some members might have access to what could greatly minimize the upfront or long term costs. For example, own or have access at low cost to a place suitable for setting up the equipment, own a vehicle capable of transporting the equipment, and other opportunities. In my project, i found such opportunities myself by going through a myriad of people i know and asking friends of friends. I lowered many of the costs by an order of magnitude off what they would have been by default



If we are talking about a one time upfront cost, this is entirely different story than a black hole that pulls money all the time, and is manageable

If we are talking about running cost, the cost can be kept down by running the tooling only intermittently. E.g. make a stock of tubes and shut the furnace down, then slowly use them up. Since there is no hurry to stand to a high manufacturing quota (and if there would be, it only means that there is demand for the product, which is a good thing), there is no rush : Batch production can be postponed as far as being convenient. Many small factories work this way, and while it may be more troublesome for a lamp processing factory than for other factories, it is not unsolvable

Currently none of us, perhaps except you (Max) and James, have seen in person what are we talking about, but several except you and James have jumped to conclusions. On the other hand, neither you or James have seen what some members here might contribute to the project



Any lamp making line is worth considering saving. The HQI no less than the SOX, and is definitely worth a discussion in its own right

For both the SOX and the HQI, or anything else, by considering i mean : Check who is interested, how much it would cost, who is interested in light of the costs, and evaluating the possibility

Upfront "No" is just that, an upfront "No". It is always safe to say No. But it is not what is meant by considering :

 - An upfront "it wouldn't be possible" can come out false. I heard enough of this when i was considering my project. Many of the arguments addressed to me (related to people from the outside trying to evaluate the upfront costs of certain parts of the project, or to the technical difficulties of the project) have since proved wrong. I put effort to arrange the conditions so, they will become wrong. Perhaps some of the people i talked to didn't expect me to put as much effort

 - An upfront "it wouldn't be worth it" is an individual choice. I see little sense in that the ones talking most clearly about the project being impossible financially seem to be the same ones who have no interest in the project anyway, even if it was for free. I think only those who are interested in such a project in the first place have a say over what they could contribute to it, and as consequence, the possibility of it. I see no point in even discussing this side of the equation with the others



How each of us manage their money is their business. We can comment on it when it is being discussed here, but my kids college fund isn't

If we take one of the mindsets to an extreme, it means that it is irresponsible to waste money on anything like vacations, upgrading (still good) appliances (when there is no e.g. efficiency benefit), buying above average cars, decorations, and other stuff. I find that mindset wrong. We work hard to make money, and we are entitled to spend some on things we want, without providing a justification other than "for personal interest"

However, i brought this up and i may bring it up again : One side effect of such project is great technical experience to everyone involved. Such experience alone can be beneficial in a very monetary sense further down the road - Experts with technical sense are highly sought after people, and that is not something you get out of college with, and only a handful of those who finish college will ever have. Personally, i did my best in college, and now i am doing my best in my engineering playground

Speaking of my kids, if i will still have this project (or some successor of it) by the time i have kids and they grow up, this engineering playground will serve them as well



In regards to hurry, my experience from my project :

Arranging things, finding opportunities for saving, takes time. In my case it took somewhere around one year. If we want to consider either factory purchase project, it is never too early to start inquiring, planning and calculating

I have been a bit late to my project. By this time, two bad things happened :

 - The company scrapped a dieset (used for stamping metal parts in a press) that was used to make one of the parts in the product. There was somebody else who bought the press itself (in which this dieset was assembled at the time), and i missed it by just few days

 - Some while later, when the equipment was already technically mine but still standing at the derelict building, there was a break in and some electronic components like controllers, I/O units, VFDs and such were stolen, both from my machinery, other machinery, and even parts that were stored separately. In my case the loss is only the cost of the controllers, since i planned to rewrite the code from scratch anyway with provision for small batch down to single unit manufacturing (which was not possible with the original control, though is mechanically possible with the machine). I dont say you should expect this to happen, absolutely not, just sharing

Many members here are regularly throwing money to get relics off Ebay or ship them overseas. Half of that smashes on the way. Nobody yet said that this is not reasonable waste of money, though i find it far less interesting than trying to make something of my own. (disclosure : i don't hunt for any lamps off Ebay, except ordinary LEDs for my electronics projects)

Same goes with anykind of collecting. Some collect postage stamps, some plastic figures, old mobile phones, fine art or even cars. Why would someone pay huge amount of money to get old postage stamp with missprint? Clearly because the buyer wants it and thinks the price is right. As an item, it's completely useless, but thats beside the point in collecting stuff. But then again, not every old postage stamp is expensive, some might be considered even worthless.

Personally, I dont put much efford in hunting any rare lamp stuff. I might get something if the price is right but usually stay away from all the expensive things no matter how rare.