Author Topic: About PL Lamps  (Read 6383 times)
Medved
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #15 on: August 04, 2016, 04:28:52 PM » Author: Medved
The PL-C's are rather bright tubes, but operate at rather low currents.
Because they are bright, the flicker could be more visible.
And the low current means another thing: All the impedances in the circuit have to be higher. Compare to the higher power lamps, you may easily scale the ballast inductance, the wire resistance scales as well, but what does not scale are the capacitances (the capacitor value is related to the starter). So all the capacitances appear to be relatively higher. That may have a consequence in prolonging the restrike time, so increasing overshoot and worsen the arc stability. It is just an idea, I have no real proven explanation for that effect, but I do observe it as well (the flicker is larger even compare to the miniature T8's, which operate at the same current levels, but are of different buffer and phosphor chemistry and mostly lower arc voltage).
I have observed that as well, but mainly with the quad tubes.
And what I observed is way greater subharmonic (fraction of the mains frequency) flicker, either some arc instabilities or the starter "nearly wants to trigger". It could be related to the higher reignition peak as well, but I'm not sure...

Or it could well be the thin tubes are just responding faster to anything, so do not filter out the flicker that much.
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wattMaster
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #16 on: August 04, 2016, 06:06:17 PM » Author: wattMaster
I would suppose it would be the thin glass, but most normal (linear) fluorescent tubes also have thin glass.
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Medved
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #17 on: August 05, 2016, 01:52:38 AM » Author: Medved
Glass thickness does not play any role at all. What I meant by "thin tubes" was the small tube diameter.
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Roi_hartmann
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #18 on: August 05, 2016, 07:10:46 AM » Author: Roi_hartmann
Talking about pl-s lamps, is it true what philips says in it's webpage that the "bridge technology" that Philips uses is better than bended technology used by others and it enables more light and higher efficiency or is this just marketing bs?
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #19 on: August 05, 2016, 09:01:48 AM » Author: wattMaster
Talking about pl-s lamps, is it true what philips says in it's webpage that the "bridge technology" that Philips uses is better than bended technology used by others and it enables more light and higher efficiency or is this just marketing bs?
What are they even talking about?
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Medved
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #20 on: August 05, 2016, 09:42:06 AM » Author: Medved
Talking about pl-s lamps, is it true what philips says in it's webpage that the "bridge technology" that Philips uses is better than bended technology used by others and it enables more light and higher efficiency or is this just marketing bs?

There are two things:
First the bridged tubes are along the whole length just straight tubes, so allow in an easier way to spread the phosphor coat more evenly (thus being closer to the optimum thickness across the whole surface).
The tubes bend in a sharp way are not that far from this either.

Second aspect is, the ends protruding behind the bridge serve as the lamp cold spot. That allows to use simpler "reverse stern" seal, but it's main advantage is the filaments could be closer to the lamp ends, what means with the same physical size the effective discharge could be made longer, hence more efficient. Then the lamps have two possible cold spots: One within the exhaust tube behind one of the electrodes (works when the lamp is base down) and second candidate for that cold spot are the tube ends behind the bridge (dominant mainly when the tube runs base up; in other positions both places somewhat work together)
The thing is, with bend lamps the filaments have to be pushed further inside the tubes, so the area behind the filaments could serve as the pressure regulating cold spot, even when the lamp is base up, so when the heat rises there.
Some makers went around this by making sharper shaped corners around the bend, which then become out of the arc way and so easily may serve as the cold spots (corners of the rectangular bends with Osram, "ear lobes" on the GE tubes,...).


So yes, if you compare it just to a plain bend, the bridge is more efficient. But when the maker precisely shapes the bend so it forms the required features, nearly equivalent effect could be gained with way simpler glass working process (just blowing the glass from the bend area into a proper mold).
But I think the bridge concept looks way "cleaner", at first glance there are just two cleanly glowing sticks.
What is interesting, when Tesla have made these lamps, they used similar bridge concept as Philips, but the technology of forming that bridge was clearly different (the bridge had different shape and even size).
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Medved
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #21 on: August 05, 2016, 10:35:59 AM » Author: Medved
Talking about pl-s lamps, is it true what philips says in it's webpage that the "bridge technology" that Philips uses is better than bended technology used by others and it enables more light and higher efficiency or is this just marketing bs?
What are they even talking about?

Look at the crown end:
Generic Chinese lamp with just a plain bend
vs
Philips lamp with the two distinct tubes and narrow bridge
vs
GE Biax "lobes" in the bend
vs
Osram (Sylvania in the US) sharp corners shaped bend
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #22 on: August 05, 2016, 12:15:35 PM » Author: Ash
Medved Could this be one of the Tesla made lamps ?

http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2113&pos=32&pid=58578

Also worth to mention the Chinese Osram D lamps, with the flattened U bends
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Medved
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #23 on: August 05, 2016, 12:43:15 PM » Author: Medved
Medved Could this be one of the Tesla made lamps ?

http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2113&pos=32&pid=58578

Also worth to mention the Chinese Osram D lamps, with the flattened U bends

The bridge looks way narrower, as far as I remember, Tesla used to have the bridge wider (not that concealed) than Philips...
Plus this lamp has the ends protruding really too far, Tesla had the same proportions as Philips...

But all that could be design evolution/variation with all of these makers, so I really can not exclude Tesla being maker of even this lamp...
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Ash
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #24 on: August 05, 2016, 12:52:57 PM » Author: Ash
Actually, i got right now a Philips PL-C 26W/827 4pin (i intend to use it along with Electronic ballast to convert some luminaire at home from E27)/ Lamp is made in China in 12/06/2012 (full production date is stamped on the box)

The bridges in this 26W lamp are way more in. The end bridges are 16mm from the ends of the tube (measured to center of bridge), the base is 12mm from the flat top of the lamp base, so probably about 16..20mm too from the tube ends if we count the tube part thats inside the base
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #25 on: August 05, 2016, 03:05:09 PM » Author: wattMaster
Talking about pl-s lamps, is it true what philips says in it's webpage that the "bridge technology" that Philips uses is better than bended technology used by others and it enables more light and higher efficiency or is this just marketing bs?
What are they even talking about?

Look at the crown end:
Generic Chinese lamp with just a plain bend
vs
Philips lamp with the two distinct tubes and narrow bridge
vs
GE Biax "lobes" in the bend
vs
Osram (Sylvania in the US) sharp corners shaped bend

I wondered what they were called. Now I know!
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WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #26 on: February 28, 2022, 05:12:10 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
In Japan, they have a unique set of "PL" lamps too. They usually have the same G10Q bases as circlines do. They include "FPL" lamps, "FML" lamps, "FPR" lamps, "FMR" lamps, "FDL" lamps, and "FHP" lamps. Interestingly enough, Lights of America uses some "FDL" lamps for some proprietary fixtures and adapters for the North American market and the FML27EX-D lamps are one of the most popular Japanese specification CFL lamps that are used outside of Japan. In addition, Japan also uses PL-T lamps that they refer to as "FHT" lamps. By default, the "FPL" (except for 55w lamps), "FML" (except for 55w lamps), and "FDL" lamps are the only Japanese PL lamps that are said to be compatible with magnetic preheat ballasts while all others are said to only be compatible with electronic ballasts.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 05:17:41 PM by WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA » Logged

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Re: About PL Lamps « Reply #27 on: March 02, 2022, 05:39:50 PM » Author: James
PL means Pi-lamp.  Pi is a reference to the shape of the discharge tube and its similarity to the Greek letter Pi.  The rest of your questions about the internal wiring may be answered by the X-Rays to show the inside of a PL lamp here.

The shape of the bend indeed has a big effect on performance.  Around 1986 Osram prepared a detailed technical paper comparing the performance of the quad-tube lamps with its original square bends vs the Philips design and it was concluded that the Philips design was better.  This was particularly so when the lamps were used in enclosed luminaires, or burning in positions other than vertical base up.  Osram then carried out a lot of work to optimise the design of its lamps so as to match and even exceed the Philips performance.  One of the changes was to increase the length of the exhaust tube inside the lamp base, so as to create a second cold spot for when lamps were used base down.  Later they made a hole in the plastic base to allow further cooling.  There were also trials done to place a small metal heatsink in the base, contacting the exhaust tip via thermally conductive grease.  Thorn actually put that design into production with their 2L lamps.

Finally, Osram changed the shape of its bends.  Firstly they developed a bend where the inner diameter of the glass tube was oval-shaped rather than circular.  This increased the distance from the discharge path to the end of the glass tube to lower the cold spot temperature.  This was first used on the Dulux D 26W which had a high temperature.  Later they developed the so-called Pear Shaped bend, where the cross-section of the glass tube around the bend is tapered towards the end of the lamp.  This reduces heat convection towards the corners of the bends and achieves a further reduction in cold spot temperature.  I think these pear shaped bends were first used on the Dulux T higher wattage types, but were later extended to the higher power Dulux D as well.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 05:50:08 PM by James » Logged
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