Cree products are junk. Go figure.

A company wanting to infest the world with flickering, sleep-depriving LED lights sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Guys lets not be crazy here. All lighting are disposable for the 99.99% of the population. Even by us lighting enthusiasts. We're more picky as to which lights are disposable, which are meant to be collected. A Philips Alto 400w HPS is disposable for most of us. A Westinghouse Corstar 400w HPS is obviously rare so we'd consider it something meant to be preserved.

If businesses didn't consider current lighting as disposable there won't be and evolution of lighting tech. We'd be stuck perpetually lighting our houses with handmade bamboo filament bulbs, probably not even then! "Gas lighting is a perfect light source so why should I bother keeping inventing with this newfangled glowing wire that keeps failing early? I'm calling it quits and keep using gas lights!" Thomas Edison. (Alternate universe.)

So it might suck to have them do that. It's a blessing and a curse. We have such a large variety of lighting tech to collect. Sucks that we'd lose our favorite tech to newer tech. That's how businesses operates and I'm not basing my buying decisions on whether a company called classic lighting disposable or not.

Wattmaster - flickering LEDs? There are LEDs that are flicker free out there. And they're no more expensive than the flickering ones.

Sleep-depriving? Turn the light off or in case of streetlights. Rearrange your room so your head won't be in the view of the streetlight as you sleep on the bed. Don't forget window blinds. I did both with a glare bomb that was the Acorn HPS post top fixture. I had problem sleeping with that HPS glare bomb until the tricks were done. Problem solved.

Too much light in your face as you sleep (or try to) and lack of planning on how to mitigate that by room arranging and blinds is a recipe for disaster. Doesn't matter the light source. LED, HPS, MV, MH, fluorescent/CFL, and incandescent/halogen.

Thing is, there is some border what is disposable and what is not in lighting, that DOES hold for 0.999 of the population, of more precisely, for their expectations :

 - Things that can be easily replaced (by a lamp base - socket connection) are disposable. A lamp EOLs, they dispose it off and plug a new one in its place. Also holds for starters

 - Things that need to mess with wiring to replace are supposed to stay "forever" - luminaires, ballasts

Same logic as with printers and ink. For the general population the ink cartridge is disposable, the pringer is not. Allthough the ink cartridges for some cheap inkjet can cost more than half the printer's cost

Now take Cree's own stuff, according to this logic :

 - LEDs with a lamp base (E26/27, tubes, ..) are disposable, as when they EOL, you replace them. If we trust the 50K hour life ratings, then you'll have to dispose off the lamp X times less often, but it is disposable nevertheless

 - LED luminaires are hard wired. But there the lamp is part of the luminaire, and its life is limited to the same 50K hours. What you do with the entire luminaire then if not dispose it ? it'd be like a printer that comes with the ink built in, when the ink ends, its time to replace the printer (even if they were more generous with the volume of ink included than they do in cartridges)



It comes clear that if Cree consider "everything else disposable" and their own stuff not, then they arent talking at all about replacement of EOL lamps, but about expecting everything else (luminaires included) to be disposed off and replaced with their LEDs. They want to imply this (as in - This is obvious that your current lighting needs to be replaced) when they are writing about stuff, so they introduce terms like disposable for non LED stuff

Thing is, there is some border what is disposable and what is not in lighting, that DOES hold for 0.999 of the population, of more precisely, for their expectations :

 - Things that can be easily replaced (by a lamp base - socket connection) are disposable. A lamp EOLs, they dispose it off and plug a new one in its place. Also holds for starters

 - Things that need to mess with wiring to replace are supposed to stay "forever" - luminaires, ballasts

Same logic as with printers and ink. For the general population the ink cartridge is disposable, the pringer is not. Allthough the ink cartridges for some cheap inkjet can cost more than half the printer's cost

Now take Cree's own stuff, according to this logic :

 - LEDs with a lamp base (E26/27, tubes, ..) are disposable, as when they EOL, you replace them. If we trust the 50K hour life ratings, then you'll have to dispose off the lamp X times less often, but it is disposable nevertheless

 - LED luminaires are hard wired. But there the lamp is part of the luminaire, and its life is limited to the same 50K hours. What you do with the entire luminaire then if not dispose it ? it'd be like a printer that comes with the ink built in, when the ink ends, its time to replace the printer (even if they were more generous with the volume of ink included than they do in cartridges)



It comes clear that if Cree consider "everything else disposable" and their own stuff not, then they arent talking at all about replacement of EOL lamps, but about expecting everything else (luminaires included) to be disposed off and replaced with their LEDs. They want to imply this (as in - This is obvious that your current lighting needs to be replaced) when they are writing about stuff, so they introduce terms like disposable for non LED stuff

Some utility companies refurbishes fixtures that do EOL (not just LEDs, HPS, MV, and MH gets the refurb job). From what I've seen of my friend's BetaLED (Cree owns them). It looks easily taken apart at a refurb shop locally or at Cree's factory. The drivers can possibly be field replaced on the pole. The LED modules might be replaced at the shop as the mating surface need to be cleaned of thermal paste and re applied with new modules to replace EOL ones. (Swap out your CPU's heatsink without cleaning the computer internals and don't apply new thermal paste and see what happens. )

Kind of returning that printer with built in back to the factory for refurb and refill. You'd get a new or a refurbished printer and that old one gets sent to someone else. At least you'd get one with freshened print heads. (Tiny holes unclogged and evenly sized without caked ink on the edge of the openings.)

A screw base disposable bulb is easier to maintain than swapping out entire fixtures I'll give you that. Remember they expect 50k+ hours out of LEDs than our 10k~20k hours HPS/MH bulbs. (Modern bulbs mind you.)

My definition of disposable is a la,p with nothing special, easily obtained, relatively cheap.
But of course everyone has different definitions of disposable.

Returning the printer to the factory requires that it is still supported by them. Guess what happens when you try to return a printer of a 10 year old model. 10 years is nothing in terms of lifetime of a luminaire. Luminaires are often still on their 1st lamp after 10 years. Luminaires made in the early years of Fluorescent technology can still be maintained with present day off the shelf parts (unless those parts were forcibly made unaailable by bans). Luminaires made by long gone and forgotten companies are still out there doing their work, and getting relamped. How long would a model of LED luminarie be supported for service by the manufacturer ?

How many of the LED luminaires are actually intended to be maintained ? And out of thise, how many are limited to only driver being replacable but not other parts - LEDs ? And i mean by corporate users who think by means of availability of the service, not by us who are happy with a soldering iron and pack of new LEDs

You really consider having to return anything to the manufacturer as a solution to maintenance ?



50K hours is only 2..3 times longer than life of an average (but good quality) Fluorescent or HPS lamp. So, after 50K hours are over (which is 13 years for some office installation thats ON for 12 hours a day, or less than 6 years for a permanently on light), the LED luminaire is disposable. While a non LED one is going through its 3rd disposable lamp, while the luminaire itself is there to stay for many more years

If non average lamps are considered, then there are Fluorescent tubes rated at 80K hours and HPS's rated at 48K hours, so longer or about as long as the life of the LED luminaire

And what happens with unexpected failures ? In non LED luminaires, the lamps are replaceable whether they lasted their rated life or not. Ballasts are intended to last "forever", but in case of failure, a ballast can be replaced on the spot. In a LED luminaire, if that luminaire is not one designed for maintenance, then its only replacing the luminaire

Returning the printer to the factory requires that it is still supported by them. Guess what happens when you try to return a printer of a 10 year old model. 10 years is nothing in terms of lifetime of a luminaire. Luminaires are often still on their 1st lamp after 10 years. Luminaires made in the early years of Fluorescent technology can still be maintained with present day off the shelf parts (unless those parts were forcibly made unaailable by bans). Luminaires made by long gone and forgotten companies are still out there doing their work, and getting relamped. How long would a model of LED luminarie be supported for service by the manufacturer ?

How many of the LED luminaires are actually intended to be maintained ? And out of thise, how many are limited to only driver being replacable but not other parts - LEDs ? And i mean by corporate users who think by means of availability of the service, not by us who are happy with a soldering iron and pack of new LEDs

You really consider having to return anything to the manufacturer as a solution to maintenance ?



50K hours is only 2..3 times longer than life of an average (but good quality) Fluorescent or HPS lamp. So, after 50K hours are over (which is 13 years for some office installation thats ON for 12 hours a day, or less than 6 years for a permanently on light), the LED luminaire is disposable. While a non LED one is going through its 3rd disposable lamp, while the luminaire itself is there to stay for many more years

If non average lamps are considered, then there are Fluorescent tubes rated at 80K hours and HPS's rated at 48K hours, so longer or about as long as the life of the LED luminaire

And what happens with unexpected failures ? In non LED luminaires, the lamps are replaceable whether they lasted their rated life or not. Ballasts are intended to last "forever", but in case of failure, a ballast can be replaced on the spot. In a LED luminaire, if that luminaire is not one designed for maintenance, then its only replacing the luminaire

Which means more wasted resources, money and time.

I think many LED fixtures are the epitome of disposable lighting. There are no replaceable components inside. This is the way many products are headed: it is cheaper to replace than repair. Who repairs their range, washing machine, microwave, and flat screen TV nowadays? Some of us older folks remember the appliance repairman that would come by to repair the refrigerator compressor or a picture tube in a TV set.

I have no problem with replacing components in an appliance, including a light fixture, but am not fond of sourcing tiny capacitors and ICs and soldering in new components on a circuit board. But, seeing as that many people don't even replace a lamp or ignitor when an HID fixture fails and it's apparently more cost-effective to swap out the fixture, non-serviceable LED fixtures make perfect sense. And no room for error of installing the wrong lamp or component (don't you hate it when someone installs a CFL in an HID fixture, or the wrong color lamp in a fluorescent fixture?)

Two big problems come to mind (besides the obvious waste): When a LED fixture fails, and a homeowner isn't the DIY type, they have to wire in a new fixture...so they have to hire an "electrician" which is expensive. Rarely does one hire an electrician to replace a light bulb.

But the worse problem: If the LED fixture fails in a large installation, and that style is no longer manufactured (common), now you have to change the remaining fixtures in the same room if you want them to match.

As for using "disposable" lamps instead of better-quality, rare lamps - I have a few "rare" lamps installed in fixtures but mostly use consumer-grade stuff.... prefer to buy decent NOS lamps on eBay rather than newer Made-in-PRC stuff at big box stores, except I'd still get 4'-8' fluorescents and LED bulbs locally.

I think many LED fixtures are the epitome of disposable lighting. There are no replaceable components inside. This is the way many products are headed: it is cheaper to replace than repair. Who repairs their range, washing machine, microwave, and flat screen TV nowadays? Some of us older folks remember the appliance repairman that would come by to repair the refrigerator compressor or a picture tube in a TV set.

I have no problem with replacing components in an appliance, including a light fixture, but am not fond of sourcing tiny capacitors and ICs and soldering in new components on a circuit board. But, seeing as that many people don't even replace a lamp or ignitor when an HID fixture fails and it's apparently more cost-effective to swap out the fixture, non-serviceable LED fixtures make perfect sense. And no room for error of installing the wrong lamp or component (don't you hate it when someone installs a CFL in an HID fixture, or the wrong color lamp in a fluorescent fixture?)

Two big problems come to mind (besides the obvious waste): When a LED fixture fails, and a homeowner isn't the DIY type, they have to wire in a new fixture...so they have to hire an "electrician" which is expensive. Rarely does one hire an electrician to replace a light bulb.

But the worse problem: If the LED fixture fails in a large installation, and that style is no longer manufactured (common), now you have to change the remaining fixtures in the same room if you want them to match.

As for using "disposable" lamps instead of better-quality, rare lamps - I have a few "rare" lamps installed in fixtures but mostly use consumer-grade stuff.... prefer to buy decent NOS lamps on eBay rather than newer Made-in-PRC stuff at big box stores, except I'd still get 4'-8' fluorescents and LED bulbs locally.

And then What If there were LED fixtures that were easily repairable, but new fixtures were expensive to make an incentive for repairing? Then it would be hard to get new customers, but maybe you could give new people a discount for the fixture.

Well, the LED's could be made fixable. But the problem is the same as with other electronic: Fixing any such failure needs about hour or two of a skilled worker time (so by far not just a "minimum wage slave"). It has never been and it will never be any different.
What have changed is the manufacturing cost: When a thing cost half year of someones work to buy, it is worth to spend few hours to repair it when it breaks.
But when the manufacturing costs is the same or even less than the two hours needed for the repair, that thing becomes automatically a "throw away" item. Then it does nopt make sense to pay design features easing the repairs - when no one would ever repair it anyway.
You think this came only with LED's? I may assure you, your estimate will be over a century too late - it is exactly the approach Edison (and the few others at that time) used for the incandescents - instead of the complex to make expensive gadget the incandescent lamp was before (even when it was made to be repaired), these people made the lamp so, it maybe was not possible to repair anymore, but was orders of magnitude cheaper, so no one cared anymore - and we have the light bulb concept we know today (it still remains alive with the "filament" LED's) and it was the low cost, what made the electric lighting the workhorse of the lighting industry till today (and there is no hints it may change any time soon).

So if the same happens with the electronic? Yes, it does. And the LED's are just another electronic...

Well, the LED's could be made fixable. But the problem is the same as with other electronic: Fixing any such failure needs about hour or two of a skilled worker time (so by far not just a "minimum wage slave"). It has never been and it will never be any different.
What have changed is the manufacturing cost: When a thing cost half year of someones work to buy, it is worth to spend few hours to repair it when it breaks.
But when the manufacturing costs is the same or even less than the two hours needed for the repair, that thing becomes automatically a "throw away" item. Then it does nopt make sense to pay design features easing the repairs - when no one would ever repair it anyway.
You think this came only with LED's? I may assure you, your estimate will be over a century too late - it is exactly the approach Edison (and the few others at that time) used for the incandescents - instead of the complex to make expensive gadget the incandescent lamp was before (even when it was made to be repaired), these people made the lamp so, it maybe was not possible to repair anymore, but was orders of magnitude cheaper, so no one cared anymore - and we have the light bulb concept we know today (it still remains alive with the "filament" LED's) and it was the low cost, what made the electric lighting the workhorse of the lighting industry till today (and there is no hints it may change any time soon).

So if the same happens with the electronic? Yes, it does. And the LED's are just another electronic...

Why not make the LED fixtures fixable in just a couple of minutes?

Yep this came only with LEDs. In other lighting techologies all parts are as easy to replace as plug/screw it in/out (lamps, starters, ..) or replace a part and reconnect the wires with quick push-in terminals

Yep this came only with LEDs. In other lighting techologies all parts are as easy to replace as plug/screw it in/out (lamps, starters, ..) or replace a part and reconnect the wires with quick push-in terminals

And then integrated LED fixtures make no sense, why not have a fixture with regular sockets and use LED retrofit bulbs?

For the same reason a dedicated PL luminaire with chokes is better than E27 luminaire with CFLs. What should have been done, but didnt happen, is some standardised form factors for replaceable LEDs. The closest thing that exists is the Philips Fortimo modules but they are only made by one manufacturer

For the same reason a dedicated PL luminaire with chokes is better than E27 luminaire with CFLs. What should have been done, but didnt happen, is some standardised form factors for replaceable LEDs. The closest thing that exists is the Philips Fortimo modules but they are only made by one manufacturer

We need to make one, what name should it be?