Author Topic: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting?  (Read 8787 times)
Ash
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #15 on: January 06, 2016, 10:09:05 AM » Author: Ash
Building codes may allow or not allow you to install a light in a certain location, or require it to be waterproof, or a footcandle level in some area. Stuff that is related to the functionality and safety of a building. I dont expect building codes to concern things like type of lamp used. That would be more like "city appearance codes"

And with that, who are the city to choose the type of light that you install ? It is your business. Nothing personal but i am open mouthed that the Land of the Free regulates things that were no one's business in the Soviet Union

Besides, lets say you have a lantern installed, e.g. a shoebox on the wall. How exactly are they planning to check what type of lamp is inside ? Walk into your property to look into the thing from below ? Wait for you to switch it on and watch the warm up appearance or check with a spectroscope ?
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #16 on: January 06, 2016, 10:13:38 AM » Author: mdcastle
It's also not clear if changing a ballast is allowed. Or who has the burden of proof as to when it was installed. Mine was installed as part of a 1995 porch addition that we got a valid electrical permit for, which was signed off on by the city. Tge city mentioned that in one case they were able to prove that the model of a fixture in question wasn't manufactured until after 1996.
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Ash
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #17 on: January 06, 2016, 12:20:05 PM » Author: Ash
To me it is outrageous that they consider it their business

(Here in Israel there is lot of building regulation, but on the electrical side, it comes down to "you can have whatever you want, as long as it is done by a qualified electrician and according to code". I.e. You cannot replace a receptacle yourself, but you can get an electrician to install the 10 1950's MV floodlights around your house all you want, provided that they are rated as needed (waterproof etc). Permits on the electrical are required only for things that happen upstream from your main breaker like preparation work for service change. From the main breaker and downstream you just call an electrician and get the work done)

As for the US code. I understand that the homeowner is allowed to replace "wiring devices" like a receptacle on his own. Is a lantern a "wiring device" ? Is replacing an existing lantern (where a cable coming to it allready exists) considered a work that requires a permit ? What happens if your lantern was grandfathered in as MV, but then you swap the lamp to a HPS for example ? (atleast in Europe there are HPS lamps made to retrofit MV directly, no changing of any gear) - does that break the rules ? What happens if you use a "portable" lantern i.e. connected to the wall by an easy attachment and connected with a plug ?
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #18 on: January 06, 2016, 04:02:45 PM » Author: lightinglover8902
Wait, you get a ticket from the city, if you have a mercury vapor lamp installed?  ???
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #19 on: January 06, 2016, 08:06:08 PM » Author: mdcastle
Permits: In most cases changing a lantern with existing wiring does not require a permit.
Retrofit Bulbs: I assume this would count as routine maintenance and thus be allowed (although most retrofit bulbs in the states seem to be metal halide bulbs for use on HPS ballasts.
Cord and Plug lantern: Plug in exterior light fixtures seem to be the small decorative sort, not the ones above 3000 lumens that fall under code restrictions.
Ticket for a Mercury Vapor: In most jurisdictions the city will issue a correction notice before taking further action.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 08:07:59 PM by mdcastle » Logged
Ash
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #20 on: January 06, 2016, 08:12:43 PM » Author: Ash
How are they going to distinguish it from a MH ? or CFL or LED if the lamp is not exposed and all they can see is the white light ?
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #21 on: January 06, 2016, 10:03:52 PM » Author: xmaslightguy
If its in your back yard I'd say just go ahead and install that MV! (especially if you don't plan on running it all night/every night)

I have a MV for the backyard myself (but as far as I know, such is not banned here) I rarely ever use it though.
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #22 on: January 08, 2016, 02:57:39 PM » Author: lightinglover8902
Hmm, is it banned in everywhere else? Just saying.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 02:59:35 PM by lightinglover8902 » Logged

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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #23 on: January 08, 2016, 03:45:52 PM » Author: Medved
The only part I would accept is the limitation of "no light trespassing" and no emitting light above the horizon into the sky. But that has not much to do whether there is incandescent, MV, fluorescent, LED or whatever other light source. Just because these two influence area which is not solely yours private.

For the type of light source, no  one has the right to pick his nose into your own stuff. Mainly when the broadband LED's are allowed (that means there are no protected area like around observatories, where they need to be able to filter out the scattered light), why an MV shall be of any problem either?
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #24 on: January 08, 2016, 04:31:00 PM » Author: Ash
I guess the USA is not "Land of the Free" any more than the Czech Republic or Israel nowadays...
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #25 on: January 09, 2016, 02:58:49 AM » Author: Medved
On the other hand what I may still accept about the color quality requirement is the lighting influencing the city panorama, so e.g. the front of your house and the lawn there. It is your property, but it is part of how the city looks for the visitors or so. And for that I may understand the community agrees (via the election process) on some rules how that should look and so mandate the owners to maintain it.
And I guess that bill is meant for just that purpose.
I don't think anybody would care, what you are using to light your backyard, if it is completely hidden from any public areas (where the panorama matters).


And regarding the "USSR and around didn't care": Better keep the hat on. There was sufficient for anyone just seeing you are using something not normally sold would be sufficient to send you in prison for years because of "stealing the socialistic property" (or how to translate the "offense" name). And that offence was worse than tax crimes use to be in the western word today.
For that sufficient "legal reasoning" was when something is not sold for the public, the only way someone may acquire that is by stealing. They didn't care if it was ever missing anywhere, even picking on a land fill was considered as "stealing".
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #26 on: January 09, 2016, 06:22:59 AM » Author: Ash
I can understand it, but there is a limit. How about in 2030 the city ban you from parking a car that is not a Hybrid or EV (or whatever else there will be), or of the wrong color, in your driveway in front of the house ?

The Soviet Union thing is true to some extent, but were MV lamps a "restricted item" ? (not counting general lack of availability of stuff during some times, but that affected GLS lamps as well). I dont think so, there are lot of rusty MV lanterns everywhere on lawns, garages and homes. No way the lanterns or lamps for them were out of reach for the owners of said lawns, garages and homes
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #27 on: January 09, 2016, 07:12:22 PM » Author: nicksfans
I found the entire outdoor lighting ordinance here. Ridiculous if you ask me. I don't know of any such regulations here in Anderson, though I don't live inside the city limits.

Also, it is perfectly acceptable in the USA to replace a light fixture yourself without a permit or electrician. What's more, it's not uncommon for homeowners to add new wiring without a permit (I've done it myself). Enforcement of that stuff is VERY lax here...it's only likely to get noticed by a home inspector when a house is being sold, and even then, only if it looks like it was done poorly. If it looks code-compliant, no one will bat an eye.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 07:27:54 PM by nicksfans » Logged

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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #28 on: January 10, 2016, 03:20:40 AM » Author: Medved
I have really the impression, that code was aimed only for the areas influencing the general look of the city from the public spaces and the overall light pollution (light causing the sky glow). So the authors really haven't cared about places like the backyards or so, where whatever light quality can not influence anyone else than the owner.

But the job of transferring these ideas into the form of a written, legally binding code was not done as properly as it should be - it appear to me, than they just completely forget such spaces ever exist, so should be exempt from some of the restriction (light color quality, uniformity,...).
Well, that statement is based how I have read it, but some terms may be legally different, so I may not understood it correctly (first came to my mind: Is really a yard fully enclosed by buildings or dense vegetation or fences per the legal definition an open space or not?).

But with many laws I see this problem to be very common: The authors have some problem to solve, but write the corresponding law so, it causes big problems in areas they didn't aim for at all. And the approving bodies (parliaments for the real laws, councils for city codes,...) usually spend all arguing about details of the main aim, but completely fail to address the consequences. And then they are "surprised", pass quick "corrections" and so on, creating really huge mess in the laws, so no one could ever find what is required, legal and what not anymore.
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Re: Can you still use mercury vapor lighting? « Reply #29 on: January 10, 2016, 07:28:25 AM » Author: Ash
Code that puts difference between MV and MH ? This have nothing to do with appearance. They both give out white light (different CRI yes, but it is not anything the average user will immediately notice in a light in someone's garden, of all things)

This is aimed exactly at forbidding lamp types, for the sake of it
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