Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 04:49:05 AM » Author: dor123
Hey! why US lamps companies continue to make and improve the argon T12 fluorescent lamps, while that in Europe they are banned and discontinued (Philips and Osram in Europe don't make FxxT12 anymore). Even Israel don't importing argon T12 fluorescents except US Philips Neon HO ALTO T12 fluorescents. I think the continue of the production of the argon T12s in the US is because krypton T8s aren't retrofits the argon T12 in the same ballast (Indeed argon T8s are also still in production in the US while in another parts of the world they are almost completely obsolete and are not producted. The only T12 that is still in prodution in europe and it is rare is the 100W krypton T12 retrofit for 125W argon T12 that would be so fragile if it was made in T8. Therefore the 100W krypton T12 produce less light then the 125W argon T12.
		Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 08:06:07 PM » Author: Patrick
I suspect 4' T12 is still more common than 4' T8 in the residential market.  For a long time the ballasts were cheaper and replacement lamps weren't readily available at retail stores, so they continued to be sold quite some time after F32T8 began to be installed commercially.  Plus most homeowners never retrofit existing fixtures like businesses do.  On 230V, you have a 36W T8 that can be used with existing 40W T12 ballasts, right?  We don't have that lamp in the U.S.  Maybe another member here knows why those lamps won't work with our ballasts.
		Logged

Patrick C., Administrator
Lighting-Gallery.net

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 11:04:30 PM » Author: DieselNut
I have yet to find a T-8 lamp that will work with my ballasts!  I am glad T12s are still being produced.  Everyone thought they would go extinct when the "great" technology of T-8 came along, but thankfully there are still manufacturers making fixtures.  NOW, if we can just keep the damn government OUT of the lighting industry, we may continue to be ALLOWED to have a somewhat free choice of lamps here!
		Logged

Preheat Fluorescents forever!
I love diesel engines, rural/farm life and vintage lighting!

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 06:38:04 AM » Author: dor123
Dieselnut: The most important part of the modern T8 lamps is their buffer gas. The reason for the higher efficiency of the modern T8 over T12 of the same phosphor coating is because the T12 uses argon and the T8 contains krypton which is more efficient then argon (Actually argon-krypton mixture to lower the higher ignition voltage of the krypton gas). The T8 of the krypton fluorescents is because if they were still T12 they maybe was consumes much less wattage but was also produce much less light. With the T8, the krypton fluorescents produces the same amount of light as the argon T12 lamps but with still less wattage. Note: The 15W and 30W T8 lamps are NOT contain krypton gas, but just argon gas like the original argon T12 lamps. Therfore these types of T8s are NOT more efficient then the argon T12s and the miniature argon T5s and so are almost completely obsolate in Europe. Also because the F30T8 and the F15T8 contains argon as a buffer gas, they are the ONLY types of T8 lamps that CAN be operated with rapidstart magnetic ballasts.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 07:02:44 AM by dor123 »		Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 07:42:45 AM » Author: rjluna2
Besides that the Krypton gas are more expensive than the Argon gas is mainly due to more rarier gas than Argon gas that contains approximately 1% of the total in our air. Also, don't forget that the Krypton gas has different electrical characteristic compare to Argon gas.
		Logged

Pretty, please no more Chinese failure.

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 08:28:46 AM » Author: dor123
Actually the krypton T8 lamps in 2xxV coutries (At least in Israel) with halophosphors are less expensive then the argon T12 lamps with the same phosphor they are designed to retrofit. The difference in electrical characteristic between krypton and argon in fluorescent lamps is only accurs in 1xxV countries (As in the USA). In 2xxV countries, argon T12s and krypton T8s have the same lamp current and operating voltage (And so krypton T8s are retrofit to argon T12s at the same ballasts), but their ignition voltage is higher (Even with the argon-krypton mixture) so the krypton T8 lamps can only retrofited to argon T12 lamps in the following ballasts: preheat magnetic ballasts with glow or electronic starters or HF electronic ballasts.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:31:49 AM by dor123 »		Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 10:13:12 AM » Author: DieselNut
Quote from: dor123 on March 11, 2010, 08:28:46 AM Actually the krypton T8 lamps in 2xxV coutries (At least in Israel) with halophosphors are less expensive then the argon T12 lamps with the same phosphor they are designed to retrofit. The difference in electrical characteristic between krypton and argon in fluorescent lamps is only accurs in 1xxV countries (As in the USA). In 2xxV countries, argon T12s and krypton T8s have the same lamp current and operating voltage (And so krypton T8s are retrofit to argon T12s at the same ballasts), but their ignition voltage is higher (Even with the argon-krypton mixture) so the krypton T8 lamps can only retrofited to argon T12 lamps in the following ballasts: preheat magnetic ballasts with glow or electronic starters or HF electronic ballasts. Maybe we need to learn something else from Europe (in addition to the BEAUTY of a diesel engine in a passenger car!).  The T8 lamps available here in USA (besides the 15, 20, 30 watt ones) are crap.  They will only work on those boring instant start electronic ballasts.  i would not have a problem with a T-8 that would directly replace a T-12 with no changes to a preheat or rapid start magnetic ballasted fixtures.  I wish we had more choices other places in the world have, but our government tends to be mighty invasive.
		Logged

Preheat Fluorescents forever!
I love diesel engines, rural/farm life and vintage lighting!

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 11:40:57 AM » Author: dor123
Rapidstart magnetic ballast are not provides enough ignition voltage to ignite krypton fluorescent lamps. Most of the major brands of electronic ballasts in europe produces ballasts that preheats the electrodes before the ignition or use programmed start ignition mothed. In the US i think the speed of the ignition of the fluorescent lamp by the electronic ballast, the inital cost of the ballast and the fact that the lamp should be lit from the moment the switch is flicked is more important then the lamp life and so also the US major brands of electronic ballasts makes instant start electronic ballasts using electrodes fusing EOL protection mechanism which is not suitable and dangerous for 1xxV. In Israel all of the instant start electronic ballasts that imported are only the chinese ones, which is usually built into the chinese fixture and not imported seperately.
		Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 02:40:32 PM » Author: Medved
The issue with krypton T8 in US are the crappy rapid start ballasts and the fact, then some a** defined spent "low mercury" lamps as non-hazardous waste. And the low 120V mains contributed to the issue as well - with the necessity of transformers (causing high losses of magnetic ballasts compare to 230V serial chokes) or doublers (rendering the simple filament fusing EOL protection system on electronic ballasts ineffective). The "instant start" on most US electronic ballasts in use is the result of extreme cost pressure. Same ballasts are appearing in Europe as well (single F36T8 sold for about 6 Euro - there is no room for anything more complex then simple CFL-like selfoscillating inverter) and flooded into cheap fixtures, but the professional segment prefer long lamp life (mainly due to high disposal costs of spent lamps in Europe), so (still) use decent quality ballasts with decent electrode preheat. Funny thing is, then energy efficiency-wise the cheapest ballasts are performing best - they have lowest losses (less then 2W for F36T8), more davanced ballast can never beat it... The reason is, then cheap bipolars are way more efficient (they have lower drop when ON then MOSes), but advanced controller chips are not able to drive them, so have to use less efficient and more expensive MOSes.
		Logged

No more selfballasted c***

	Re: Interesting find at my local Wal-Mart, Reveal linear fluorescents! « Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 02:48:08 AM » Author: dor123
Medved: Actually i saw in the web site catalogs of Philips europe and Osram gmbh that their triphosphors Lumilux and Master TLx also contain a lower dose of mercury then regular dose, still they aren't suffers dimmer light output and mercury starvation all of their lifetime. Perhaps unlike the US low mercury lamps, the Lumilux and the Master TLx are coated with additional coating that prevent mercury to be absorbed into the phosphors and the glass and so can be operated in full brightness but still with low mercury dose? In Israel, the only fluorescents and CFLs that i ever seen which went mercury starved was (And still are) mainly the crap chinese junks, but also (Very rare) fluorescents of the major brands with production errors. By the way, in my hostel, in their two lamps bug zapper at the salon in the near past, one of the chinese fluorescent blacklights also became mercury starved (Not instantly but gradually dimmed until went dim argon purple).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 02:55:06 AM by dor123 »		Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.