Author Topic: Speakers in stores/restaurants  (Read 4602 times)
Cole D.
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Speakers in stores/restaurants « on: February 22, 2020, 08:41:58 PM » Author: Cole D.
In a store, like a chain, does the company, decide what kind of music that they play in the store and how loud it is? What kind of panel do they use for the intercom or radio playing?

Since today we went to a store called Bealls Outlet and the music was turned up so loud there was a bass coming from the speakers. Which I didn't know ceiling speakers could even produce bass. Bealls Outlet usually plays XM Satellite radio in their stores, and the song playing so loudly was Life Is a Highway by The Rascal Flatts.

I hadn't noticed it turned so loud before, unless maybe it was just the song the made it seem so.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #1 on: February 22, 2020, 11:32:53 PM » Author: xmaslightguy
Quote from: Cole D.
In a store, like a chain, does the company, decide what kind of music that they play in the store and how loud it is? What kind of panel do they use for the intercom or radio playing?
I believe this depends on the store/chain...
Some the corporate office controls everything, others a manager can select from a group "stations" which in some cases they are in reality 'playlists' since the music isn't broadcast, but rather stored on a music system in the store or streamed over the internet.
Store management could also set the volume in many cases since there has to be an amplifier in the store (depending on the amp, that may be able to be 'locked' (or atleast a max level set) as well).


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Since today we went to a store called Bealls Outlet and the music was turned up so loud there was a bass coming from the speakers. Which I didn't know ceiling speakers could even produce bass.
When the re-modeled the Target near me, they also must've replaced the sound system, because it now puts out bass (not like thumping bass or anything, but enough that the music actually sounds pretty good...not like the tinny/cheap bass-less sound of a common ceiling speaker). The volume is also kept at a reasonable level, like it should be. :lol: you don't go in a store to be blasted by whatever music they're playing..it should just be there in the background.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #2 on: February 23, 2020, 12:44:51 AM » Author: tolivac
I have objections to music played in stores and restaurants-music that is NOT my choice.And I cannot turn it down or off.Music is ART and NOT wallpaper-when are places going to realize this????I have had to ask at eating places to turn the music down when I am talking to the person I am eating with.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #3 on: February 23, 2020, 12:15:58 PM » Author: dor123
Garinei Afula here, seems to be obsessed to Mizrachi Music . In every branch of Garinei Afula that I visited, I heard mainly Israeli Mediterranean Music, of singers like Omer Adam, Sarit Hadad, Static and Ben El Tavori, Eyal Golan, Avi Peretz, Shlomi Shabat, Itay Levi, etc... All I can say it is a crap and horrible music which have often uses clueless language...
There is a bakery near the city center of Kiryat Ata, which turning up Mizrachi Music at full volume.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #4 on: February 23, 2020, 06:49:03 PM » Author: sol
There are clothing stores here that I would like to see what they have to offer, but the music is obnoxiously loud, so I avoid them...
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 12:27:05 PM » Author: sox35
I have slight autism, and one side-effect is that I cannot tolerate so-called 'piped' music, whatever the volume level. It's not a major problem in shops, as I can just leave, or not shop there, but in places where I have to spend a significant amount of time, like the hairdressers (it's a girl thing  :D) then it's really difficult and I have to wear earplugs. Even then it's still audible to a degree.

I just don't understand why places have to play music. I can see no justification for it whatsoever; if they think it increases sales, then they are so wrong with me, as even if I went in there with the intention of buying something, I will just walk out again and take my custom elsewhere,. In fact, the BBC did a survey a few years ago. They visited a large shopping centre (mall to you lot over the pond..!) and divided it into two. One half had the music switched off, the other half kept it on.

Guess which half got the most sales..?

Here is a UK site which is active in protesting about the onslaught.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #6 on: October 31, 2024, 07:55:05 PM » Author: Cole D.
Our Walmart is currently under remodel and I noticed that they replaced the ceiling speakers. The new speakers are Bosch brand, and they’re quite louder than the old ones. In fact that’s how I happened to notice they’ve been replaced.

The old ones had a ring around a mesh that looked kind of like white fabric. I’m guessing those were original from 1992, they were there since I was a kid at least.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #7 on: November 01, 2024, 03:40:51 AM » Author: Medved
The problem is, the speaker system is an integral part of the emergency safety system of these large buildings with so many people in them. And with that, the system must permanently monitor whether they are still working (at least sending some signal to them and monitor whether the current corresponds to that, aka verifying the impedance). The system monitors whether there is any signal already send to the speakers usable for the diagnostics. If not, it needs to send its own test signals, which tend to be rather loud and even when supposedly above the normal hearing range, due to their intensity still quite annoying (it uses to be responsible for a mysterious headaches, discomfort,...), mainly for the staff who are there practically permanently (I mean all their work hours). And most affected are animals - service dogs, animals in pet shops which use to be located in those malls or so.
The problem since late 90's is, the fire codes became stricter, mainly reducing the maximum allowed fault detection/indication time in the PA system to 10 seconds, so once a wire breaks or short circuits at some speaker, a corresponding fault indicator on the control panel must get triggered within 10 seconds. That means the system must make some noise at least once per 3 seconds. And it must do so at every place accessible to the public. And because it must test the speakers themself, it is just impossible to make the tests without some noises.

So although it is often quite annoying, the music, at least to me, is still the lesser evil option compare to the others that were in use (before the code required the 10 second response), given the code requirements, at least here.

Yes, to me 10 second fault detection latency seems like huge overkill - what could anyone needing the system for the emergency do with an information about some part of the PA system not working to be max 10 second old, vs when it would be just few minutes old (when the test would happen e.g. just once per minute). Normally if some part fails, it stays failed for hours or days and in a real time emergency event no one would ever study the fault flags, but attempt to use that PA regardless, hoping the either the speakers still somehow work, or at least the message get there at least indirectly from some more distant speakers.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #8 on: November 01, 2024, 04:40:06 AM » Author: Laurens
Bosch makes good stuff.
Standard ceiling speakers don't really produce much bass. The reason why bass is often such an issue is that your average 70/100v audio system skimps on transformer size, severely limiting bass response. You cannot feed them frequencies below about 100Hz because of transformer core saturation. That means you essentially get a short circuit on the line at those frequencies, heating up the amplifier like crazy. But for *background* music, you don't need serious bass response, and neither do you need it for announcements or alarm signals. So it's all fine if the system doesn't produce bass.
However, if you design the system with generously sized transformers, bass response will be as good as that of any (tube) amplifier with output transformers. I got a pair of transformers sitting around that are good down to 15Hz (!) at 140w (!!).
But no one is gonna spec a system with that extended frequency response if it's not needed. You mostly find those in 'popular' clothes stores, that pretend they are a club. For those customers, the manufacturers also make ceiling mounted subwoofers. Sadly, that's getting more and more popular in general. Loathsome.

But yeah, music is often turned up way too high. I hate it too. And it's often easy listening music with autotuned voices which really get into my brain and ruin my day. When i go clothes shopping i gotta take my own music with me just to avoid that 'engineered to be popular' music that repeats the same little hooks and tricks in every song.

Self tests - i have never heard those. I know modern systems do it. But there's no reason to demand a 10 second detection, because no maintenance crew is ever gonna show up the same day to replace a few broken speakers. That's among the lowest priority jobs i reckon, even below swapping out dead light bulbs.
But any ultrasonic system is gonna be pretty hard to detect as sound. Simple ceiling speakers already have trouble reproducing anything above 15kHz, let alone actual ultrasonic signals.

Where the music comes from?

Well, that depends. Big chain stores have a centralized music broadcast system with a music and commercial mix tailored to the store formula. In the case of the hardware store where i worked, it was a small streaming box in a 19" rack. Volume control was of course local, because every store is a different size and has different acoustics. I once contemplated to make a complete carbon copy of the corporate 'sound' but with little jokes and 'off' things in it, as an april fool's joke. Never did, too risky in case some store manager did not have any sense of humor.

Before streaming, it could be sent as a subcarrier signal via FM radio afaik. And before that, on endless loops of tape, meaning the exact same music would repeat every few hours.
There is one clothes store here, that seemed to run their own music. I was there on an evening a few years back, and the music was just chill, without autotuned pop singer vocals, and i could actually enjoy my time there instead of running out as fast as i could. A store can get away with that, but it's always a risk. If you're a chain, running the corporate music mix is mandatory. If you're a small store and playing music on the job, you have to pay royalties. There aren't many inspectors in my country visiting stores, but technically you have to pay royalties if you play music to your customers.

I still have a very negative pavlovian conditioning to the whoops at the start of justin bieber's i'm sorry or whatever it's called. I liked the hardware store job but the music was killing my brain.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2024, 04:49:22 AM by Laurens » Logged
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #9 on: November 01, 2024, 08:37:06 AM » Author: Medved
For the impedance test it does not have to test the speakers really radiate the sound (as that is not possible without actual array of microphones in the area), it is supposed to test just the electrical circuit condition (impedance). So ~10..15kHz test signal is good enough. Problem is, it is already marginally audible, even when you do not notice it directly (mainly in the mall noise), but when persistent it "creeps on the nerve"...
The 10s detection time is a standard what fire inspectors require here since somewhere early 2000, it was then when most stores started to play music in order to prevent the 15kHz test tone from activating. Many systems just use a permanent test tone, as it appears to be simpler to implement for the diagnostic. But the standard completely ignored the annoying aspect it brought.
Once there is some real sound signal fed into the system, the test tone shuts off.

I wouldn't be surprised this standard was passed as a means to bring business to special PA equipment makers, so people could not use the way cheaper generic audio equipment for it. Because I also have strong doubts about the usefulness of this in ensuring public safety - at the time of emergency no one would ever be checking for any faults (why else would the 10s response be needed I have no idea at all), but just use it as is and hope it reaches as many of people as possible.

Irony is, the built-in test (the 15kHz tone) really can not test anything beyond the electrical integrity, so very often the PA system is effectively dead not because of broken wires or so, but because e.g. some renter in some small boutique had painted over the speaker grill and sealed it off.
So the "permanent music" could also be an extra safety measure to keep the PA system really working - it makes it easy to detect some faulty area even by the regular mall security staff without any extra training or equipment, just tell them to also keep checking whether the music is playing everywhere it should.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #10 on: November 01, 2024, 10:31:50 PM » Author: Roi_hartmann
Don't they use 25kHz pilot tone and end of line fault detectors? I've been helping installing some Bosch PA systems some years ago and they used little devices at the end of the speaker lines that monitored 25kHz pilot tone generated by the amplifier.
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #11 on: November 01, 2024, 10:51:13 PM » Author: dudam001
@Roi_hartmann  That is correct. I’ve got a Bosch Praesideo system + Bosch Plena VAS, and the VAS does generate a 20kHz tone constantly, whereas in Praesideo, the pilot tone is optional. Both utilise their own end of line cards (although, I don’t really have them connected, as it’s just two 100v speakers).
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Re: Speakers in stores/restaurants « Reply #12 on: November 02, 2024, 03:42:37 AM » Author: Roi_hartmann
I have 100V single program PA system at home for bg music and radio compiled from parts here and there. Haven't bothered with any sort of monitoring nor backup power for it. I've wanted to get a remote controlled matrix mixer for it but have not found one with reasonable price.
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