Medved
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some led experts say leds will eventually cost the same as an incandescent lamp! i find it hard to imagine how they could sell long lived lamps at that price without going out of biz...
One part become true already today: A complete LED fixture cost about the same as a corresponding incandescent fixture - as with both you are already paying more the artistic craft... And as the LED's allow more design flexibility (being a SELV devices from their nature), the fixtures could be made simpler and so cheaper (or more expensive - as the artist become less restricted by the safety things...) And the other part: If the other maker "next door" would be able to sell them cheaper, our maker would have to do so as well, otherwise he would become out of biz very quickly...
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Cavannus
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About 6 years ago I started buying incandescent bulbs to stockpile them before the ban came in Canada. For 2 years, I've stopped to do so because high-CRI warm white led bulbs (90+ CRI, 2700 tint) became available and they mimics incandescent pretty well. So now I've replaced my hidden incandescent bulbs by this high-quality leds -- I still have incandescent or halogen incandescent in my bedroom, in my bathroom and when the bulb is visible in my sitting room. I don't think of saving money (I know I don't), I simply wanted to try these new bulbs and produce less heat in summer. My kitchen is lit by two "sets" of lights: - ambient lighting using such incandescent-like leds; - daytime lighting using high-CRI full-spectrum fluorescent (2 x "92 CRI - 5000K" F20T12 tubes in a vintage ceiling fixture + and additional F15T8 desk lamp).
I was happy that Philips, LedNovation, etc. brands tended to offer high-quality lighting. But I've noticed that for a few months the quality has dropped at the same time of prices: CRIs are around 80, bulbs flicker to save electronics, etc. I'm wondering whether I should start storing incandescent again.
I'm against incandescent ban which which purpose is obviously marketing and policical. As long as eBay and flear markets will exist I think I'll be able to buy incandescent bulbs whatever the ban.
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Ash
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So far i noticed fluorescents - both ordinary halophosphate daylight (/D) and triphosphate (4000-6500K range) make way better color quality than LEDs of the same color temperature
I woulsd stock on incandescents of the types i use if they are to be banned further. Also consider stocking on 1 size higher wattage incandescents, and bringing them down to the brightness you want with a dimmer - This will make them last way longer so your stash of spare lamps to last for longer, though the light will be more yellow/red. Here the ban is on 75w and up. In another forum i am right now having a talk with a member who is mad at all the energy saving lamps and is going back to incandescents, one thing i told him to consider is that if 100w lamps are banned he can instead add a 2nd socket in the lantern (if it is a cover hiding he lamps) to use 2x60 instead
As for lamps being available from illegal import, warning : Many of the illegally imported lamps i seen here are the cheapest ones made, to the extent that i seen one which is not perfectly round shape glass envelope (!!) Those sometimes lack fuses and can explode at EOL. Before you put one to use (or buy more from the same seller) have a through look into the lamp and look for proper fusing and generally quality. If the lamp is questionable, only use it in a lantern that can contain exploding lamp. Those also have higher chance to trip breakers when they go
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Cavannus
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Thanks for the reminder, I was aware of bad quality, not dangerous bad quality...  Actually when mentioning flea markets I had in mind new old stocks. Just after I left France, the incandescent ban started and I asked my father which kind of bulbs he will buy: he replied that he would keep buying incandescent since he had seen LOTS of NOS in flea markets. I'm also thinking that oil or gas lamp chimneys, wicks, etc. (NOS as well) are still somewhat easy to find. Another thought: I've never seen so many vintage reproductions since the ban started in Europe or in the US! I'm sure the "standard" incandescent bulb will remain available sold as decorative stuff. Some other incandescent bulbs should also remain available for industrial purposes, for ovens, etc.
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dor123
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I don't think so. Since the ban is created for planned obsolescence of the light bulb, and to cause Philips make $$$, and not really for environmental purposes (The Royal Philips Electronics inc. initiated the ban (Which is why I boycotted them), and comprised totally of product placements and greenwashing), there is a possible situation that the electric lamp will go extinct and LEDs will be used everywhere, including application, where they can't last more than few minutes . There are no doubts, that a commercial and a marketing body and not a political bodies, stand behind the lamp ban.
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:02:06 PM by dor123 »
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I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site. Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.
I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).
I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.
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Cavannus
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I remember this oven!  Anyway, let me give another example: for a couple of years outdoor cloth & equipment stores have sold WOOD stoves; these stoves are dedicated to hikers and they burn small pieces of wood instead of gas, naphta or alcohol. Hipsters love them -- I've tried some of them but they didn't convince me at all, and I'm not sure they're really that ecological. That said, in the 1960's I don't think anybody would imagine hikers using wood stoves; today most of the cities try to ban wood fireplaces or charcoal BBQ restaurants; but the BioLite or even the Vargo wood stoves are now "cool" equipment! I think that when led and CFL bulbs is the norm (e.g. when children or cartoonist will draw a LED as a symbol of an idea!), the ban will be "forgotten" and some incandescent bulbs (e.g. the A clear bulb) will be available again as decorative reproduction items. They will be expensive for sure, but they will be available again. But I don't think mercury lamps will revive because the general public don't care about street lighting tints.
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:53:54 PM by Cavannus »
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Ash
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I have yet to see a software program that does not use the floppy icon for "save"
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CrestwoodOhio
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I would say that I am a fan of Energy Efficient and Energy Star products. I feel LEDs are more Energy Efficient than the incandescents. I prefer to save energy costs. Usually Fluorescents & Metal Halides & LED have better Color Temperatures than the incandescents & the Sodiums. Since I can buy LEDs that have a 7000K color temperature, that is a PLUS!. I like the 6500K CFL & Fluorescents too. I don't think we would ever see incandescents nor sodiums at that high of a color temperature.
As a fan of Energy Efficient and Energy Star products and as a fan of 6000K & higher Color temperature products, I would support the incandescent ban as I like to save energy costs.
All opinions are accepted friends.
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6500K Color Temperature Kelvin lighting works for me. I use 6500K CFL in all my incandescent light fixtures. I use 6500K Flurescent bulbs in my flurescent fixtures. I hope prices get better and hope I find 6500K LED lighting in the future. I love energy efficient and Energy Star products. Way to go!
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Medved
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There is nothing wrong in the preference of any high efficient concept, should that be the CFL, LED, or whatever else could come. But why the ban?
People have stopped using flames and moved to electrical lighting about 100years ago just because the electrical light was more efficient and more convenient to use, there was nothing like "candle-" or "kerosene lamp ban", yet people moved for the more efficient system whenever it was feasible at least a bit. The medium pressure MV's disappeared just because customers didn't wanted them. And they didn't wanted them, because there were more efficient alternatives available. Again, no ban, just the customers have decided they don't want that anymore, so lamp makers stopped making them. All that need no bans at all. Why suddenly the move from incandescents to more efficient lamps needs first the incandescents to be banned? Isn't there something wrong? If the energy production does create so much harm, so government feel the need to artificially motivate people to participate on the energy conservation, why just not move some tax (e.g. from a VAT) onto the energy use? Wouldn't that be way stronger motivator to look for ways to really reduce the overall energy use? Indeed, most people will still not move from incandescents, but just because the lighting is just few percent of an average household energy needs, so they will first look for savings in the largest parts, which are the transportaion and heat management. But does not that make way more sense? The incandescent bans have just eaten from the household income, creates a feeling "I've done with conserving", so way less people will consider e.g. upgrade the house thermal insulation or replace their car for a newer, more efficient, earlier - the areas, where the most of the energy consumption lies...
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dor123
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This is what called "Greenwash".
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I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site. Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.
I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).
I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.
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merc
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An interesting (and disgusting) reading: The Green Capitalists by Mikael Nyberg (1998), pdf free to download. It's not about lighting but it could help to stop being naïve concerning ecological thinking of those big transnational companies (such as Philips). As for me, I'm quite neutral to LEDs. I'm against fanatic "LEDists" who push me on putting LEDs everywhere and throwing away everything else at once. The feel/mood of streets lit up by daylight white (6000K) LEDs remind me of old MV from my childhood. And I like it. On the other hand, I would prefer circular fluorescent in our living room as after 8 hours of using it in winter, my eyes don't feel tired. I can't say the same about places where LEDs are used. This is why I want to have the choice. Note: I hope that the kind of fluorescent I use (with 82lm/W efficiency) isn't subject to any ban. But it could be in few years...
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 03:59:46 PM by merc »
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Brendda75
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Well, I would have to say that I really do not support the incandescent ban at all. I really think the person has the choice to use whatever that they want to use. Some people are old school and have a saying and that is "Don't fix it if it ain't broke" and I am a firm believer in that. There is a reason that incandescents has been around as long as they have, and that is that they work. Lamps are cheap, and can be used pretty much anywhere. Same goes for the fluorescents where everything is headed. Everything is shifting to the new electronic ballasts, T8 lamps, and the T5 lamps, which I really don't care for. I am old school, and I have always been around the T12 lamps. Seems like everything where I am, is already starting to make the move to retrofitting to LED fixtures and some stores in after a month have issues already.
I do get tired of people pushing this LED technology on me as I have quite a few people trying to do that to me. Everyone has their own preference. I know some people in the Lighting Gallery has had great luck with them, and others hate them! In my opinion, LED are very neat and cool to look at, but they have their own rightful place and that is being used as indicators, Christmas light sets or any other holiday themed sets and decorative purposes. But in general lighting, I don't like them. Has a lot of glare in a commercial setting, and streetlights around me is slowing changing into LED, and I am very disappointed. Will certainly bring more crime to the area after replacing a 175W MH! As far as compact fluorescents goes, I thought they were a wonderful thing and trust me, I had a LOT of them! All of them had the electronic ballast built in. But since I had 3 of them stink up the house, and the very last one almost set my house on fire with actual flames, I don't like them anymore. Only ones I like are the traditional magnetic ballast with a starter. I gave all my CFLs away for free after that incident, so I have incandescents all over my house now.
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Love dresses, make-up and just crazy about fluorescent lighting!! Keep those T12's and magnetic ballasts alive!!
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themaritimegirl
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I think Medved hit the nail on the head. Why does the government all of a sudden have to use force in moving the market to a different product? Obviously there's something wrong if there's enough market resistance, with people stocking up incandescents and the like, to make the news, for crying out loud. To directly answer the question, no, I don't think the ban is reasonable, no matter how much better LEDs get. What I'm glad for, though, is that specialty incandescent lamps are still available, and for general-purpose use, halogen lamps are doing an excellent job. At least, I think they are - we bought a pack of Sylvania bulbs, used one for a few months, and it worked great.
Brenda: Like you, I was quite fond of modern CFLs when they first became widely available, and I helped Dad re-lamp his entire house with them in 2002. Of course, back then they were much higher quality than they are now, and every single one of them was still working in 2009. I own a couple of electronic CFLs I bought in the mid 2000's, and they're also still working today.
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randacnam7321
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The entire reason for these rubbish bans is simple: control The idiots who come up with this nonsense want to control every aspect of your existence, and either don't care that such control freakery killed over 325,000,000 people in the 20th century (and as many as 450,000,000 depending on what you count) or they do know about this and want it to happen. One of the things that the enviros have been gibbering about for some time is 'sustainable' population levels, which for them are between 100,000,000 and 2,000,000,000 people. The other 5,000,000,000 to 6,900,000,000 people will be exterminated. So we know that sinister motives are a factor in what they do.
And even without factoring in the evil elements in the green movement, lamp bans make no sense. LEDs are excellent for certain applications like low level (under 100lm) illumination and idiot light applications as there are now a huge number of colors available and properly implemented solutions can last for tens of thousands of hours. Which is why they became common in such applications due to market forces and with no mandates whatsoever. Likewise, properly designed compact fluorescent lamps can be worthwhile substitutes for incandescent lamps in some applications. But far from all.
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Old school FTW!
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themaritimegirl
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Interesting idea about the sustainable population...! I learned in a biology class I took in the fall, that we haven't actually hit our maximum sustainable population yet. Apparently it's somewhere around 10-12 billion, and once we hit that, natural forces (I don't know if that would be starvation, or what) will level out our population growth (which actually already started leveling out about 10 years ago), and the human population will forever remain at that point. Mind you, this is based on what happens when such a thing happens to animal populations in the wild. Unfortunately us humans tend to be all too cunning at cheating the laws of nature, so who knows what will happen.
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